One of the underlying problems is that the ‘commodity’ of economic analysis is never defined, so that there is an appearence of endless possible substitution. So, for example, the analysis constantly switches between, say, coal in my local High Street shop to “energy” on a global scale (the unit of analysis is never defined either). In addition, as the institutionalists said years ago, the institutional parameters are not specified either, such as technology and legal framework. Economists are really not qualified to make predictions as to technological developments.

What is actually happening is that new forms of fossil fuel extraction expose us to ever increasing risks, which (as Ulrich Beck suggested) are now so large that they fall outside of traditional legal institutions. Suing people in Japan or Chenobyl, (or Monsato for that matter) doesn’t really deal with the risks adequately.

With respect, there do seem to be a plethora of issues around the use of markets. I’m not sure economics is as coherent or logical as you suggest.

Jon Mulberg

As far as the particular issue of energy is concerned, it is still the case that the energy arriving on the earth from the sun, is an order of maqgnitute more than we so far appear to need. (Houghton: Global Warming, Cambridge University Press, 2004, pp, 289-290). We ‘only’ need to take the trouble to harvest some of it, and my judgment is that this is quite doable. The fact that such a course of acion may, under the prevailing false price structure, appear to be more costly than carrying on with overstressing an unpriced common resource, is, of course the crucial point about the backstop technology.Nevertheless, I agree that we should look beyond this particualr issue.

Aart Heesterman

Finally, it is great to see that someone is finally setting the record straight as to what Adam Smith and Charles Darwin thought about the roles of cooperation and competition in economics and evolution respectively. they both realised that competition occurs within the larger context of cooperation. These two processes are examples of simple rules that apply to each level of the hierarchical system in which we find ourselves and their application give rise to emergent properties that characterise the system. Change the mindset and then one can change the behaviour and ultimately the outcomes. That is what we are currently grappling with, changing our respective mindsets.

I find the statement “What is not in reality possible, is to restrict the demand of energy, as currently produced by burning fossil fuels, to a sustainable level.” amazing. Did I miss something or is one of the premises of the statement that limits to growth are not relevant? We are already using 1.5 planets to maintain and grow the current global economy. As far as I am aware there is not another planet available at this time to sustain this level of economic activity. So as Richard Sanders wrote in his paper, we are treating the Earth as business in liquidation. The point is that if we ourselves do not limit our use of energy to a sustainable level, then the Nature will impose it. I would prefer it for us to impose the limits on ourselves in ways that we can cope with rather than have Nature impose its limits in ways that are much harder for us to deal with.

We do not have much of a choice, we are going to have to produce energy from sources other than fossil fuels, renewable sources as far as possible so that the economy that we build on it is sustainable.

The reference to absolute scarcity is a half-truth. There is a concept of ‘backstop technology’, i.e. as we must stop to use fossil fuel, we need other methods of generating energy. However, that technology is as yet, under the prevailing false price structure more costly than burning fossil fuel. And even worse, the scarcity of fossil fuel with a low carbon footprint is driving current commercial activities towards tchnologies such as catalytic cracking of tar and exploration of shale gas, which have higher carbon footprints. The reality of energy becoming more costly than it used to be, will have to be faced. What is not in reality possible, is to restrict the demand of energy, as currently produced by burning fossil fuels, to a sustainable level. There is no such level: the carbon dioxide content of the atmosphere is already too high and technological means to reduce it will have to found.

Aart Heesterman

“There is a perfecrtly logical and coherent definition of sustainability within the remit of market economics. It is a price structure, including prices of scarce natural resources, which keeps the demand of any resource within the available / sustainable supply. “

Comment by Aart Heesterman at 19:05 on Sep 26, 2012

Actually, I would suggest this is not the case. All branches of orthodox economics are concerned with substitutability, and are not applicable under conditions of absolute scarcity where there are no substitutes. This is actually said explicitly by Robbins, and is a point made by Galbraith and Hirsch. I deal with this in more depth in my own paper. What is required under conditions of absolute scarcity where there are no substitutes is a process of allocation, of which price is only one method. This analysis leads us on anentirely different path, into a Green Political Economy with an emphasis on institutional analysis, and also philosophy and sociology.

Jon Mulberg

I think I would agree with Richard’s point that dreaming of better things or situations can play a significant role in achieving those better things or situations. This general claims seems not susceptible to the object that slavery has not been fully eradicated, or that the civil rights struggle continues not fully realized. Rather, moral, social, and political progress is advanced in part by dreaming that things can be made better. It is hard for me to see why the lack of complete success would suggest that an ingredient for (so far, partial) success should be rejected.

Your comment may suggest a claim that the only legitimate “liberating reality” is that of an absolute panacea to the problem in question (e.g., slavery) that brings ultimate closure. As such it may imply an assumption that reality is static and that there is no pluralism of values, worldviews, etc., and that people always act according to single-minded ideas in some over-arching consensus without their personal ideologies, not to mention the unequal distribution of power and interests. However, both the ecological and social world is very dynamic, changing, and in constant evolution. Recognition and acknowledgement of the dynamic and uncertain reality brings us to a different understanding of the meaning of a dream that becomes a liberating reality — not as achieving the next threshold that is above historical, social, and economic conditions, but rather of a universally shared and respected aspiration that is broadly pursued and legitimized by the legal, moral, discursive, etc., norms of society. Changing and dynamic reality may mean that our dream at some point encounters new circumstances that require revising what slavery, for example, can mean today and perhaps broadening our definition of it, as a different mode of expression arises – one, perhaps, that was unknown until a certain step has been reached. As the history of humanity proves, there are very strong reasons to believe that the best we can do is work in progress that constantly verifies the meaning we ascribe to the world and requires constant tackling between more universal ideals, concrete situations or circumstances, and more particular attitudes.

I appreciate Richard’s dream and I think that speaking out on ideals does not imply blindness to constraints or the human condition, or a naïve belief that the perfection of a dream’s realization will be ever achieved.

The text is at

http://www.earthcharterinaction.org/content/pages/Read-the-Charter.html

I think the Charter’s principles reflect the requirements expressed by Richard Sanders in his paper. The principles present a practical basis for action subscribers are expected to apply at all times.

The “haves” (let’s say a part of the Occupy Movement’s 1%) are unlikely to sign the Charter soon.

So what are we going to do about that?

In his dated 28th September to David Oldroyd Richard Sanders writes:

“Dreams sometimes become liberating realities – witness slavery, suffrage, civil rights, the Berlin Wall, apartheid.”

Since it unlikely the author means that slavery is a “liberating reality”, are we to assume that slavery no longer exists in the modern world, that suffrage (for example in the United States, not to mention that in many other countries)is universal, that civil rights are actually respected ?